Your Brain Isn’t a Computer and That Changes Everything

The best way to cook just got better. Go to http://HelloFresh.com/THEORIESOFEVERYTHING10FM now to Get 10 Free Meals + a Free Item for Life! * One per box with active subscription. Free meals applied as discount on first box, new subscribers only, varies by plan. Get 50% off Claude Pro, including access to Claude Code, at http://claude.ai/theoriesofeverything For the first time on TOE, I sit down with professors Anil Seth and Michael Levin to test the brain-as-computer metaphor and whether algorithms can ever capture life/mind. Anil argues the “software vs. hardware” split is a blinding metaphor—consciousness may be bound to living substrate—while Michael counters that machines can tap the same platonic space biology does. We tour their radical lab work—xenobots, compositional agents, and interfaces that bind unlike parts—and probe psychophysics in strange new beings, “islands of awareness,” and what Levin’s bubble-sort “side quests” imply for reading LLM outputs. Anil brings information theory and Granger causality into the mix to rethink emergence and scale—not just computation. Along the way: alignment, agency, and how to ask better scientific questions. If you’re into AI/consciousness, evolution without programming, or whether silicon could ever feel—this one’s for you. Join My New Substack (Personal Writings): https://curtjaimungal.substack.com Listen on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4gL14b92xAErofYQA7bU4e I personally subscribe to The Economist. FLASH SALE to May 18: 50% off annual (double the usual!) No other podcast has this! https://economist.com/TOE Timestamps: - 00:00 - Anil Seth & Michael Levin: Islands of Consciousness & Xenobots - 08:24 - Substrate Dependence: Why Biology Isn't Just 'Wetware' - 13:13 - Beyond Algorithms: Do Machines Tap Into a 'Platonic Space'? - 21:46 - The Ghost in the Algorithm: Emergent Agency in Bubble Sort - 29:26 - Degeneracy: The Biological Principle AI is Missing - 36:34 - The Multiplicity of Agency: Are Your Cells Conscious? - 43:24 - Unconscious Processing or Inaccessible Consciousness? The Split-Brain Problem - 49:32 - The Ultimate Experiment to Decode Consciousness - 57:31 - A Counter-Intuitive Discovery: Consciousness is *Less* Emergent - 1:03:39 - Psychedelics, LLMs, and the Frontiers of Surprise Links Mentioned: - Michael Levin [TOE]: https://youtu.be/c8iFtaltX-s - Anil Seth [TOE]: https://youtu.be/_hUEqXhDbVs - Geoffrey Hinton [TOE]: https://youtu.be/b_DUft-BdIE - Living Things Are Not Machines [Article]: https://www.noemamag.com/living-things-are-not-machines-also-they-totally-are/ - Classical Sorting Algorithms [Paper]: https://arxiv.org/abs/2401.05375 - Michael Levin and Anna Ciaunica [TOE]: https://youtu.be/2aLhkm6QUgA - Being You: A New Science of Consciousness [Book]: https://amazon.com/dp/1524742872?tag=toe08-20 - The Consciousness Iceberg [TOE]: https://youtu.be/65yjqIDghEk - Iain McGilchrist [TOE]: https://youtu.be/Q9sBKCd2HD0 - Matt Segall [TOE]: https://youtu.be/DeTm4fSXpbM - Andres Gomez-Emilsson [TOE]: https://youtu.be/gi08eVU_-f8 - MIT’s Augmentation Summit: https://augmentationlab.org/summit - Granger Causality Analysis [Paper]: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25716830/ - Dynamical Independence [Paper]: https://journals.aps.org/pre/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevE.108.014304 - Elan Barenholtz [TOE]: https://youtu.be/A36OumnSrWY SUPPORT: - Become a YouTube Member (Early Access Videos): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdWIQh9DGG6uhJk8eyIFl1w/join - Support me on Patreon: https://patreon.com/curtjaimungal - Support me on Crypto: https://commerce.coinbase.com/checkout/de803625-87d3-4300-ab6d-85d4258834a9 - Support me on PayPal: https://www.paypal.com/donate?hosted_button_id=XUBHNMFXUX5S4 SOCIALS: - Twitter: https://twitter.com/TOEwithCurt - Discord Invite: https://discord.com/invite/kBcnfNVwqs Guests do not pay to appear. Theories of Everything receives revenue solely from viewer donations, platform ads, and clearly labelled sponsors; no guest or associated entity has ever given compensation, directly or through intermediaries. #science